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Matthews
03-20-2011, 10:38 PM
Hey guys...
I am putting together a custom support weapon build using an A&K M249 body, and I was looking for your input.
I've narrowed it down to these two systems, DTG M249 Drop-in or the new Polarstar P249 Fusion Engine. What are the advantages of both? Can anyone tell me of their specific experience with the DTG 249....opinion and performance?

Here is what I want out of my build:
400+ FPS with a .25g
18-25 RPS for ROF
Conservative Gas Usage with 20oz CO2
Loud Report
Reliability
Recoil is a plus but not too important

DTG 249 Drop-In:
$399

Polarstar P249 Fusion Engine:
$450

If you know anything about the system (frogfish), which would you choose and why?

Zen
03-20-2011, 10:58 PM
Must be pretty new stuff Matt....I wasnt aware of either of these and Google was not much help. I assume that they are gas op systems to replace the electric GB's.

With anything that new...do you really want it before its tweaked by some time and use in the market? Thats pretty expensive man.

Matthews
03-20-2011, 11:09 PM
You're pretty much right on it... They are drop in replacements for AEG gearboxes that convert the gun to a tethered Gas Operating System. Basically, drop-in Gasboxes.

Look here Zen, It will blow your mind:
Polarstar isn't even released yet but is rumored to be the top shelf in performance and FPS capabilities:
http://www.youtube.com/user/PolarStarAirsoft
(Extreme Performance ROF/FPS)

DTG boxes have been available for a while now and have been teaked/perfected by a few retailers.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=daytona%20gun%20m249&search=Search&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&spell=1
(Offers realism and recoil in place of extreme performance)

Zen
03-20-2011, 11:19 PM
One word...."daayyyummmm"

Since I am a realism junkie, the Daytona" kick system would be my choice...though I cant see myself carrying it. Vehicle mounted? Abso-frickin-lutely.

Wonder if you could drop that in a custom built Browning 1919....dayum.

Matthews
03-20-2011, 11:22 PM
Yeah it is a tough decision... both sound intimidating as hell!

McMike321
03-20-2011, 11:34 PM
if your looking for recoil and a more overall durable gun get the DG kit

if your looking to have a system where you can adjust FPS and ROF on the fly to meet field rules etc. the fusion kit is morre flexible.

I haven't owned a DG M249 ,but I've owned an Escort MP5 which operates under the same principles as the DG kit and it is a solid system once it's tuned properlly. There aren't any electrocincs systems onboard the system will enable you to get down and dirty and not worry about a short or electrical failure.

I haven't a clue about the abilites of polarstars system for their fusion kits, but they seem to allow the user to have more consistancy and seeing as the system is a giant solenoid it will allow for a person to change FPS/ROF on the fly which is always is a positive thing. Only problem is I don't know how well the electronics would fair against debris and crap.

Honestlly if I wanted to purchase one right now I would probally get the DG drop in kit because I prefer realism and durability and it's cheaper.

BoogerRed
03-21-2011, 12:15 AM
Anyone know with either how many shots you'll get in one 20oz tank?

Matthews
03-21-2011, 12:17 AM
Polarstar Fusion engine is rumored at 5000rnds at normal operating PSI (~100PSI)
Not sure about the DTG system.

frogfish
03-21-2011, 12:28 AM
Matthews,

They are two completely different solutions for two completely different playstyles.

The DTG kit is designed for recoil, range is on par with what you would expect out of an AEG, but ROF is more realistic due to the mechanism, it is not a BB hose like many lipo using SAWs.

Recoil is quite strong, like a 22lr, and they are very loud. I've owned a first gen DTG drop in kit as well as the latest, while it's not in my possession now, I have sold part of it to my best friend in Texas who uses it regularly to good effect (I prefer BV classics).

Escorts are also relatively light on gas use as well (compared to BVs) so you could possibly expect a 20oz CO2 bottle to last all day long (roughly ~3000rds) if you did short controlled bursts.

But remember the DTG kit isn't exactly drop in, some minor modifications need to be done to make it fit (none that prevent re-installation of the AEG components) and tuning it can be a long and arduous process if you've never done it before. However the community on CA.net is great and will guide you on your way.

The Polarstar is another direction entirely as it has minimal recoil, but has adjustability, while not exactly on the fly (requires a computer) you can essentially take any V2/M249 AEG and make it into a well tuned DMR or high ROF spouting SAW. It is essentially a hybrid gas/AEG, nothing like an Escort/DTG.

The only problem with the polarstar box right now is that it still dosen't exist as a product, and outside of polarstar themselves we have no idea of how it behaves, it could be a waste of $450 (much like the madbull 470) or it could be a true revolution in airsoft.


Either way you'll need to set up a decent air rig, so expect to drop somewhere between $150-$190 if you buy new, and factor that into your price.


Now for personal opinion, I have a BV operated classic that fills the role of DMR for me ( shoots ~289 ft at about 360fps w/.2g BB, and my preferred playstyle) after having quite a few other escort based classics, I just wasn't impressed, sure they are nifty and cool, but in all honesty I'd rather use my BV. The polarstar is really cool in that I can have one AEG with multiple uppers for different situations, and as I have a toughbook, programing it at the field is not a problem for me, if the box is moderately reliable I could see showing up to an op with my BV and a polarstar and just using whatever the day calls for instead of lugging around several different replicas like I currently do. I've got a friend who claims "he's first in line" for one when they come out, I can keep updating you as he works on his.


Now for you guys who love realism, the DTG kit could be a dream come true, the recoil gives you this jolt that just sends chills down your spine if you've never used it before, and they are loud enough that the sound alone has gotten me surrenders/kills. Just make sure to locktite everything as it will rattle an AEG body to bits.

Paul
03-21-2011, 12:31 AM
I am eagerly awaiting a polar star unit! Don't know the specs but the ability to use native hop up is very appealing to me. Mike, do you know if polar star uses it's own hop up or the gun's?

frogfish
03-21-2011, 12:43 AM
Paul newer DTG m249 kits use AEG hop rubbers now, and supposedly the last update on the M4 drop in kit was going to use an AEG hop-up.

Personally; set screws FTW, much less variability in pressure to the BB, just as long as it uses an AEG rubber and nub I'm happy.

Matthews
03-21-2011, 12:52 AM
Frog I knew they were two different directions entirely... but I was looking for input (yours especially , since you owned a DTG) and especially if anyone could comment on the reliability of the DTG system.

In all honesty, I'll probably invest in both systems come April.... along with a decent $200 rig from AustinWolv
Do a review on both... and then post it up here.

What I like about DTG:
-Realistic ROF (won't outrun a boxmag, doesn't sound like a minigun)
-Recoiling "bolt"
-Loud report

What worries me about DTG:
-Good range (200ft) ?
-Gas Effectiveness (only 3000rnds per 20oz tank) ?
-FPS capabilities (what's the max w/ .25g)

What I like about Polarstar (hypothetical):
-Adjustable ROF/FPS
-Perfomance Extremes (maximum consistency/range)
-Gas economy (solenoid system)

What worries me:
-It doesn't exist
-Ridiculous/unrealistic ROF (outrun a boxmag) ?
-still needs batteries AND gas

frogfish
03-21-2011, 01:08 AM
Ok, it's easier for me to address your questiosn directly as then I know what answers to give rather than just posting some random tidbits of info

What worries me about DTG:
-Good range (200ft) ?--------yes 200ft no problem, imagine a well setup CA 249

-Gas Effectiveness (only 3000rnds per 20oz tank) ?---that's actually pretty good, I can expect about 700-1000 out of a 12oz for my BV, and you can also run it on compressed air which is even cheaper, and can be refilled from a scuba tank if your field dosen't have gas. Compressed air is about $3 for a filled 80cubic foot tank (there are smaller and larger) from a SCUBA shop and you can get co2 from Dicks as well.

-FPS capabilities (what's the max w/ .25g)--- the DTG system is very robust, I would say your NCAO limits would be easy to achieve, but they typically come tuned for more common 450fps w/.2g BB, just don't expect to get up into the 600fps ranges. When you order (don't order from OPforce) you can get them to set it for your velocity though, or you can tune it later on with the proper spring (about $10, and a few $0.20 O-rings).



These are my two concerns with the PS system but for different reasons,

-Ridiculous/unrealistic ROF (outrun a boxmag)--- I may not always call the first hit (sometimes I just don't realize it, but the second or third yes for sure. I don't need to be sprayed with 20-30 BBs in under a second. There is a point where you are making sure people call hits, and then there is being malicious and un-sportsman like to fellow players. The latter is easily abused with the PS system.


-still needs batteries AND gas------- originally one of my complaints as well as I have a tendency to trapse waist deep in water during games, and more recently when I started fielding military comms gear and electronics with my classics, completely swimming during games to flank an enemy has become a possibility (I will admit I've only done it three times, but boy, popping up behind an enemy force from a place they never though anyone would come from gives everyone a great story to share). However with most places we play this isn't really an issue, usually guys who run gas setups have AEGs as backups so charging batteries the night before is common, it's pretty easy to toss a battery on a charger as long as you remember, but it is certainty another point of failure in a complex system.

EDIT: Let me give my friend a call and get more exact info on how much gas my DTG is using now, I haven't heavily used the newer gen DTG mechbox, but I've owned it for a little over a year now (lol). I know not too much was changed with the box but the hop-up has changed a bit.

Matthews
03-21-2011, 01:27 AM
Yeah I noticed they take AEGish hop-ups....the M249 drop-in has what looks like a similar yet proprietary hop-up based on pictures from opforce tts...they call it an "enhanced" hop-up.

That brings me to your first point, if not buying from Opforce TTS, then who would you recommend?
I've emailed both Sparrow and TnKrizzo on CA.net... they were really helpful when it comes to DTG lineup.

That being said, I was sold on the DTG system until I read this:


There are 4 DG boxes in my immediate area. At any given time, at least half of them are down.

If you can get a DG box that works great and is reliable, it would be much more fun to shoot. However, I've decided to get the P* for the (projected) shot to shot consistency and reliability.

What would say about that?

frogfish
03-21-2011, 01:35 AM
Sparrow is OpforceTTS, Tnkrizzo is who you should try to order from *if* possible.

Good 'Ol nav, he's actually exaggerating a bit, and he neglects to point out that of those only one is a 249 kit, and it's mine, down due to the proprietary hop up that has been replaced by the newer kit. He also uses my DTG kit quite often as he has help pay for some of it. However all three of those DTGs are owned by good friends of mine.

The other 3 are DTG AKs all which have a flaw (but only 1 was down due to this and it is now back in working order). A screw related to bolt travel is not made of a strong enough steel and so after about 4,000 rounds (sometimes more sometimes less) it breaks, but is replaceable if you know what screw to get. Another one is down because someone (another good friend of mine) set the PSI in his AK up to about 250psi accidentally and damaged his bolt (this same screw broke, but far enough down in the bolt that removal was difficult). The last one has had continuous issues, mostly because it's a custom build of an RPK, and the first gen DTG kits had screw on barrels and very little else to secure them, the long length of the RPK barrel put stress on the kit and it never feed or shoot well. It now has the newer AK build and is supposedly working (as of last week)


Nav is like me though he likes range and accuracy, however he has had a hell of a time with BV replicas, it's like they are afraid of him or something, he gets them, they shoot fine for a while, and something miraculously breaks that should never break. So he's gotten fed up with BVs and is looking for something else.

EDIT: AustinWolv is also considered a "local" by Texas standards to my home forums in Houston and is a friend of mine, he has quite the collection of DTG AKs that he maintains in good order, and so do a few others on his team as well as about 5-10 players in the San Antonio area. Another friend of mine, Hammerhead (the same hammerhead who hosted bulldog last year), and if I remember correctly has had a few issues with a DTG ak that were resolved eventually with some tuning. Classics are pretty common in the Texas airsoft scene, and so we have a good amount of "local" community support, it may be a different story up here.

But it is a good time to say that you have to keep up with DTGs you do need to clean them after every day, and you should keep them well lubed with RC car shock oil.

Thunderstorm
03-21-2011, 01:41 AM
I'm really thinking about getting a Polar Star to drop into my M16. I think I could handle the blow to realism if I didn't need to worry about a battery dying out of nowhere.

frogfish
03-21-2011, 01:45 AM
The battery won't die out of nowhere, the battery is just powering the circuitry for the electronics (computer chip and valve controls), it would last longer than it would in your AEG. Seeing as how you probably run an AEG as your primary, it wouldn't really be a blow to realism at all the only big difference would be the gas rig.

Matthews
03-21-2011, 01:53 AM
Excellent.
Thanks for clearing that up Frog... I had a feeling the older kits, as with any gen1 product, had it's bugs.
I'll try and get one from Tnkrizzo if he has any in stock.

As for the P*, I guess I'll know as soon as anyone. planning on it being released at the end of the month or early April.

The realism lost would be in the ROF you experience with P* but it would make up for that with range/accuracy.... great V2 platform if you ask me, perfect for a DMR.

frogfish
03-21-2011, 02:04 AM
Good luck with both, I hope the P* turns out to be decent as I would like to see more people using external gas based systems, and the guy who runs P* is like me and loves the robust simplicity of the BV mechanism that delivers 26 year old replicas like mine that that shoot ~290+ft at assault rifle velocities. He want's to get enough interest in his products that he can design and sell BV replicas without going under.....

If you have issues with the DTG kit don't hesitate to ask anyone on CA.net they are a great community, but be prepared to spend a lot of time looking at a parts diagrams or supplying pictures to figure things out if needed.

ThumpMaster6
03-21-2011, 08:58 AM
On the PolarStar Engine...
More information is coming out daily from the Noji gang...but the current videos of it in-play on some of their home fields is starting to flesh out what the system can do in a skirmish. The are NOT BB hoses, at least as they have been video'ed...in fact, some of the AEG support weapons they're running against seem to be firing faster and harder, so the on-the-fly tune-ability can keep them realistic.

I would like to see MORE blowback/recoil and a louder sound from them...in fact, they were originally designed to be a replacement for DMR/Sniper weapons, so making them as quiet as possible and then ADDING sound/recoil might be even more challenging than making these boxes quiet. And, you're looking at TWO moving parts, some solid electronics and a 9v battery plus air, doesn't get much simpler than that!

Lots of video on my site, or just search PolarStar on YouTube...they have their own channel with good videos on-line, and while we hoped to have a prototype at the NAA Expo 2011, the guys were still awaiting some components they are having a tough time sourcing for quality...another plus in my book is that EVERYTHING is Made-in-USA, even the electronics...and you can ping them with questions if you need specific details.
PLEASE do NOT ask "what's the price" or "when will they be ready" questions...you are only slowing down INNOVATION!

THUMPY...OVER

Matthews
03-21-2011, 03:57 PM
P* Prices:
Fusion Engine Kit for (M4/M16) - MSRP $450
PR-15 Rifle (10.5") - MSRP $650
PR-15 Rifle (14.5") - MSRP $650
PR-15 Rifle (20.0") - MSRP $650
PR-15 Tactical Rifle (14.5" w/ RIS) - MSRP $715

-from PolarstarAirsoft.com

@Thumpy:
-From those same videos I deduced that the P* system is without a doubt the FASTEST firing (ROF) system with capabilities beyond just about any traditional AEG or GBB. Nothing else runs at 38rps consistently. It would break! Like you said, the adaptability/adjustment of the system is what makes it truly stand out.
-It is run by a solenoid, so recoil is almost non-existent and impossible. But it wasn't built for recoil.
-Both the DTG and P* system are run off of expanding gas as the primary propellant, so.... making it silent is alot easier than your traditional AEG. Because adding a foam filled suppressor actually negates/absorbs sound (gas) leaving the barrel, suppression can be accomplished. On the flip-side, it is inherently louder than those sewing machines that overpopulate most Airsoft fields. Making it even louder is easily accomplished with the addition of barrel modifications and amplified flash-hiders.

In short, I will be reviewing and testing each sytem side by side to determine the strengths and weaknesses of both.
I very much look forward to the innovation that the Nojis are bringing to the industry.

frogfish
03-21-2011, 04:05 PM
You can't get an escort based system to be a whole lot quieter as a lot of the noise comes from the engine. But KX3 work wonders as sound amplifiers, I just wouldn't put one on anything not classified as an SBR.

Paul
03-21-2011, 04:06 PM
I can attest to the quietness of a suppressed, non blowback gas gun. I have a Maruzen MAC-10 with a huge suppressor can in front. Full auto on that thing is just out of this world....a muffled jackhammer that sounds downright mean. Any other NBB can do the same thing...a foam filled suppressor can, and it becomes whispering death. with a blowback mechanism though, there is the sound of the action cycling.

On the flip side, an enclosed room amplifies the sound attributes of a gas gun firing. I've fired full auto with my BV gas M16 next to a building. The report, reflected off of that wall, had people's jaws hanging!

Matthews
03-21-2011, 04:10 PM
You can't get an escort based system to be a whole lot quieter as a lot of the noise comes from the engine. But KX3 work wonders as sound amplifiers, I just wouldn't put one on anything not classified as an SBR.

Yeah I plan on P* my SOPMOD kit so I can Suppress my MK18 upper.
And Amplify my M249 with a DaytonaGun Engine...

Zen
03-21-2011, 05:00 PM
I can attest to the quietness of a suppressed, non blowback gas gun. I have a Maruzen MAC-10 with a huge suppressor can in front. Full auto on that thing is just out of this world....a muffled jackhammer that sounds downright mean. Any other NBB can do the same thing...a foam filled suppressor can, and it becomes whispering death. with a blowback mechanism though, there is the sound of the action cycling.

On the flip side, an enclosed room amplifies the sound attributes of a gas gun firing. I've fired full auto with my BV gas M16 next to a building. The report, reflected off of that wall, had people's jaws hanging!

I KNOW that our vaunted leader didnt suggest that a foam filled mock silencer was a good idea (thats an ATF no-no) ;)

I'm on the other side of the sound debate. I'd like my guns to have a louder report when they fire. GB noise sucks, but a nice "pop" would be great.

Paul
03-21-2011, 05:45 PM
LOL I don't recommend it, but that was what we used before the ruling!

Matthews
03-21-2011, 06:49 PM
I KNOW that our vaunted leader didnt suggest that a foam filled mock silencer was a good idea (thats an ATF no-no) ;)


To hell with the ATF....
Just because it's illegal, doesn't make it wrong

I was making Suppressors in the 4th grade

Riptide
03-21-2011, 07:27 PM
I say DTG. Justin from Daytonagun is very helpful with tech issues and custom projects. Unless you want to wait for the Polarstar and see how that's like.

Matthews
03-21-2011, 07:42 PM
Well thanks for the replies guys...
Definitely alot of feedback on both systems.
I appreciate the experience and "classic" knowledge.

Will post up both guns upon completion along with reviews!

Paul
03-21-2011, 09:38 PM
Hey Robert I accidentally sheared the brass recoil screw on my escort mp5SD6 once. After a bit of heartburn, I separated the parts by tapping the bolt out of the outer cylinder with a mallet and removing the stump with a screw extractor.

frogfish
03-21-2011, 10:28 PM
I say DTG. Justin from Daytonagun is very helpful with tech issues and custom projects. Unless you want to wait for the Polarstar and see how that's like.


Justin has been a little iffy on comms as of late, I'd try to get something stateside first.


Hey Robert I accidentally sheared the brass recoil screw on my escort mp5SD6 once. After a bit of heartburn, I separated the parts by tapping the bolt out of the outer cylinder with a mallet and removing the stump with a screw extractor.

Yeah that's what we ended up doing after much fretting, the screw was just out of reach for an extractor so we very carefully rotated it with a small size drill bit, then we got it with the extractor once it was at the right height. Justin's been notified of it and he's supposed to be replacing it on future AKs.

BTW my friends RPK, down again, but getting replaced by DTG, it's been a PITA due to the barrel length. I havent been able to talk to my friend about gas consumption yet, sorry.